thread Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business? in Community Corner

In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

PessoAlumni — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 13:29:15 GMT

Hey Newsies,

Today we’re looking at an article from Inc. reporting on the potential benefits of shifting to a 4-day work week for small businesses. I’d love to hear your experiences on this!

Inc.: These Small Businesses Adopted 4-Day Work Weeks. Here’s What they Learned

There’s been a lot of talk in the last few years about shifting to a 4-Day Work Week (4DWW). While the majority of this conversation has been around traditional office jobs, the article explains that shifting to a 4-day work week can have big benefits for small businesses too.

The article cites some case studies of small businesses who have implemented it, and the biggest benefits are around increasing productivity, much as it is for more traditional jobs. Burnout has a real cost to businesses of all sizes, and affects not only us as business owners and managers, but also our employees. Shifting to a 4DWW can give ourselves and our employees more time to rest each week, so they’re more energized when they come back to work.

Personally, I love the idea of a national shift to a 4-day work week. When I ran my shop, both my dad and I were able to adjust our own personal schedule to only be there 4 days a week, except during extremely busy times.

Our business was open 7 days a week, 10+ hours each day, split into two main shifts. Our employees were all seasonal and part-time, paid hourly, and most of them only worked 4-5 days a week, about 6 hours per shift. We consciously made that decision to limit them to only 4 or 5 days because we saw that when they worked 5-6 days a week, they were more tired and less productive when they were on shift. Overall it led to happier employees who could enjoy their time off and be more engaged while they worked.

If we were to stick to a strict 4 day week, we would probably have had to hire additional employees. But since they were paid hourly, the total cost to the business would probably stay about the same, except for some additional initial training time to pay for.

What’s your perspective:

Would shifting to a 4-day work week lead to any additional costs for your business?

Would the benefits for a 4-day work week be worth it for your business?

Have you, or would you try this out?

Can’t wait to hear your thoughts!
Pesso

This article is for informational purposes and does not constitute legal advice. For guidance or advice specific to your business, you should consult with a qualified legal professional.

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

DinaLRosenberg — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 17:32:19 GMT

we used to close 2x a week- now we are open 7 days.. I can't see that working for us at all. We already don't get what we need done in a day done LOL

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

MudFire_Dex — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 21:20:56 GMT

I don't know whether to laugh or cry - I have a 7 day work week - we are closed Tuesdays but that is a personal work day for me. Sometimes I work 7.5 if things go poorly (* yes that is a joke) - but my staff (mostly Gen Z) have an 8 hour shift split into 2 - 4 hour shifts on 2 different day and then teach a maximum of 12 hours a week that they schedule independently with an additional 6 hours of tasks related to teaching - like finishing pots, emailing their clients, etc. They are all small business owners and most really struggle to get past 30 hours including the time above and the time they put into the work they sell and those who are putting in more time really seem to resent it a lot of the time. I find it hard to relate because I have always been so excited and frankly honored that I own a business that is successful and I am one of those types that has to be told to stop working. If I weren't working for myself would I want a 4 day work week - maybe? But I'd want the days to be 10 hours for sure 😉

I think it represents a generational cultural shift. I spend a lot of time reading, researching, trying to create positive social culture and connections between them, and still this persists. Since Covid closures - I have seen a marked difference in my staff's ability to engage in conflict resolution and in holding teammates accountable. Sometimes they endure mistakes that are detrimental to the team instead of making a correction with a shift mate because they fear the friendship to be in danger if they do. I read a very interesting article yesterday actually - one that might make a good thread @PessoAlumni @maxpete https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/healthcare/our-insights/addressing-the-unprecedented-behavioral-health-challenges-facing-generation-z -. It was talking about generational differences in mental health and even physical exhaustion. I find myself regularly doing tasks here alongside people that are 20-30 years younger than me - and telling me their bodies are tired. I go home wondering how that's possible, but I do want to figure out the 'why' and what we can do to help our team move through these feelings. I found this article and many subsequent links within it to be a good, deep dive.

***Our business is open 57 hours a week - mostly to accommodate being open outside of the work schedules of others 🙂

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

maxpete — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 21:12:10 GMT

Because I am curious, what would need to happen in order to go back to your original schedule of being closed 2x per week?

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

maxpete — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 21:15:32 GMT

Really great call out on how this may be different for business owners vs. employees. Also, the cultural shift as well, I can see that too. It's definitely something that has been a big discussion point for younger millennials and gen z and I'm very curious to see how this plays out in future generations.

Appreciate you sharing this article and your perspective on this too!

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

MudFire_Dex — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 21:41:26 GMT

The article was a good read and linked out to another about how younger generations are more apt to describe a workplace as toxic and the difficulty for business owners to figure out what to change to have a "fix" and how there may not be a fix because the answers aren't in the actual workplace but are centered in this idea of mental health challenges and outlook for the future. It posited that many business owners (myself included) can't relate sometimes and believe that the way out is training on adaptability and resiliency but that hasn't proven to work either. It gave 9 tips that we are mostly doing - relating to community building that were great actions to take in business. Maybe I'll make a post about those for discussion 🙂 I know that we have faced this issue and the cognitive dissonance that come up when thinking of the perks we are giving (free business classes, studio space, a key to the building, peer workspace that is private, supplies on site, opportunity for extra income in teaching that is entirely flexible) in exchange for working 8 hrs a week (shifts are also paid).

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

isabelle — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 21:49:30 GMT

THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION! Curious - @BlackAngelDsgns @vinesandrushes @Donnie-M @londontea @Tamyra_Paunchy @MichiganFarmsta @sugarlab @timberhillwine @JUYBoutique20 @Sam_400º @makedonas @Minion would this ever be possible with your biz model? How many employees would you have to hire to make this possible?

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

maxpete — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 21:57:41 GMT

Definitely a good read! This is all super fascinating.

Oh, I would love to read that post if you end up writing one! Maybe even a future blog post 👀

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

makedonas — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 22:20:35 GMT

not only the amount employees needed, but also their work capability and how well organized their personal lives are.
i actually try not to schedule ppl more than 4 shifts, unless I see they can be consistent.
i keep telling them that I’m continually looking for reasons to give them raises.
Don't give me reasons not to 🤦🏻‍♂️

PS. Besides being Greek, I’m in the Show-Me State 💪🏼

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

Sam_400º — Thu, 25 Apr 2024 18:41:36 GMT

I work a 2 day week most of the year and throw in a few extra days in the summer.

That’s the balance that works for me.

The 4 day week as a contentious issue here, with the local government trialing a 4 day week (very dodgy test, leader involved with some research so its a little loaded) while the national government keeps telling them to stop and making threats. [NEWS LINK]

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

Minion — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 23:06:00 GMT

If I were working for a large company, or any company for that matter, Ideally a 4 day work week, specifically 4 10 hour shifts would definitely be ideal.

Being a one man show, in automotive customization I don't think that this would work out for me. I try not to get any more booked any than 3 weeks as it is. I look at my business as non-essential, so when someone has an extensive amount time think about $600+ on a bedliner, or $1000 plus on undercoating protection that tends to get put on the back burner. Given the cost of living, an expected expenses that can come up.

If however that above wasn't the case, then a 4 day work week could potentially benefit as far as extending my work into slower periods of time (March)., but that is really the only benefit that I see for myself from it.

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

maxpete — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 23:14:11 GMT

Definitely hear you on being a one-person company, it's hard to limit the amount of hours that it takes to run your business!

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

PessoAlumni — Thu, 18 Apr 2024 19:34:04 GMT

Thanks for sharing, @MudFire_Dex !

I totally get where you're coming from. That excitement of being a business owner and seeing all of the fun things we can do to improve things, and running on that adrenaline and not caring how long and how late we work. I've absolutely been there and felt that and done that. But I've also gotten severely burnt out as a result, and it was part of the reason we ended up selling the business. We worked so much in the business that we just started getting resentful and hated all of the things we had to do all of the time.

What tasks and things keep you working 7 days a week? Can you put systems into place to automate or obsolete-ize some of them? Can you hire out or delegate any of them?

I started reading The E-Myth Revisited for our book club, and it talks about the 3 roles that each business has, and often the owner is all 3. The Technician (who does the actual work in the business), The Manager (who creates order and process for the work), and The Entrepreneur (who sets the vision for what the business does and is going). He author talks about the big problem most businesses face being that owners can spend too much time as Technicians working in their business, and not delegate and hire out, either not doing enough Manager and Entrepreneur work, or just trying to do all three and get burned out.

This might be a little controversial, and I really hope you and others don't take it the wrong way, and is meant not just towards you but to everyone, including myself:

What if the new generation have it right about work? What if it is actually better to not work so much, and stop when their bodies feel tired? What if we're just not meant to work more than 30 hours a week? What if working 7 days a week is just going to lead to burnout and frustration and animosity towards the business? What if that excitement we're feeling is more just adrenaline and duty and obligation than actually true excitement? What if hiring out some of the tasks that keep us working 7 days a week, and then enabling us to take a couple of days off each week, would lead to even more excitement about the business?

----

Very very good point about the conflict resolution and accountability issues. I've absolutely seen, and sometimes even myself felt, not wanting to correct coworkers for worry about if they would feel it as a slight against them. We did a workshop around Radical Candor (and I've been trying to get it as a Book Club book but people haven't been voting for it) and that really helped me a lot -- maybe it can help your team too! And thanks for sharing that article!

Rooting for ya in all of the ways and always happy to keep the conversation going!

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

PessoAlumni — Thu, 18 Apr 2024 14:06:44 GMT

I love this, @MudFire_Dex ! I'd love to read that post too! Thanks again for always being interested in learning and improving and sharing!

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

PessoAlumni — Thu, 18 Apr 2024 14:08:09 GMT

Thanks for sharing, @Minion -- that's a really good point. If you have a client and they want to pay for something non-essential, you don't really want to delay in case they change their mind!

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

PessoAlumni — Thu, 18 Apr 2024 19:32:58 GMT

Thanks for sharing, @DinaLRosenberg !

I totally feel that. There is always more work to do and never enough time to do it!

I asked it below to Deanna -- what kinds of tasks do you not have time to get done? What systems can you put into place to save some of that work? Does hiring out / delegating make sense for any of those?

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

MudFire_Dex — Thu, 18 Apr 2024 20:26:29 GMT

Lol - not offended at all. People regularly joke with me about how much I love to work 😂 ✨

We also did a workshop around Radical Candor which resonated a lot for me - I would vote for it!!! I am a very direct person and often feel that the most 'kind' answer isn't always the most 'nice' answer. I thought it was amazing but the exercises we did onsite with the workbook didn't resonate as well with participants here that were younger. They still seem to prioritize friendship in most interactions even with the understanding that not correcting someone can lead to them making a future mistake again.

I don't require anything above 8 hours to be on staff here, teaching is by want and is scheduled independently or not at all, and selling of their own work is self-directed under guidance with the perks they are receiving. We've found that we can manage our desired schedule by having a staff of 18-20 who work 8 hours a week - and are scheduling teaching to their economic goals.

If I am speaking honestly - I am still energized by the work - and really always have been. I know I might be a rare bird but I prefer being really hands on and rarely feel burnout (the only recent time was during Daphne's illness) and that was balancing remote work and living in a hospital. I do find that I am fulfilling the roles above in some part - but there is a lot of delegation now. We've considered a manager insofar as opening a second space because I can't double my efforts nor can Daphne.

I do experience frustration, irritation, and hatred of certain things, and being tired physically. I do hold empathy and understanding for those who do experience burnout. Like anyone else I enjoy an afternoon on the patio with a margarita, dinner with friends, a vacation here and there 🌟 I think I have an easier time with grounding and starting each day with what is possible. I don't sleep overnight here anymore or work past midnight. Boundary shifts have been small but meaningful and I do take time for joy and love of things outside of work. There are definitely weeks where I feel more comfortable personally to do a 5 day work week but the 7 day work weeks happen when something is going on that is a fix for me (see also resident repair technician for kilns and wheels) and this week's adventure - being onsite to manage a team of plumbers replacing our main water line because the one encased in concrete in 1963 bit the dust.

I recently conversed with a friend closing her second location after 8 years. She said - I get asked all the time - what advice do you have for starting a small business - and she replied - DON'T. She went on to elaborate - don't if you want the first 10 years to include all of the things in life that you see folx with corporate work doing - PTO, vacations, work/life balance. She said you have to be aware that unless you are starting with very deep pockets (being able to hire out the gate) you are paying with those first 10 years. She regretted opening the second location when her first began to easily run itself and I found the conversation very resonant.

I think corporate jobs that are salaried can easily be 4 - 10 hour days - or maybe possibly 32 hour weeks if CEO pay is reduced. Wage equalization would be possible easily if a board would vote to support workers and not just the C-suite. For small business I think this is very difficult. And for someone working independently who wants to work outside of a corporate structure I think there is still a very valid entrepreneurial work week of 60 hours. To create something and get it off the ground for a while at least you are doing all of the jobs - you are the marketing team, creator, hr, labor, social manager, graphic designer, etc.

Here's the conundrum though - how do we as a society support those working for themselves or in industries where a live-able wage is not payable on a 32 hour work week like in food and other service jobs, unskilled labor, etc. To me the idea of a 32 hour work week is separating labor by class - like someone working in tech is worth more as a human and is entitled to that time but someone working more than one job or in a labor based positions may need to work two jobs to make ends meet working double that.

So much conversation right now involves the affordability of homes, groceries, etc - I find that my mentees in the business incubator here are telling me they want a salary of $6k a month after taxes to afford what they want and to live on their own but that means a salary of upwards of $60 an hour if you are working only 30 hours a week, which most small businesses can't pay nor can these artists pay themselves that and if we paid would cause us to close off our offerings to most of the community we serve. Our diversity of membership and event attendance is crucial to our community. We offer around $35 an hour plus tips (up from $25 a few years ago), but they can't earn that just starting out selling their work nor working in another gig type job or in food service etc...so I think unfortunately the rhetoric around the 32 hour work week isn't well supported in what they can earn exiting college and entering predominantly service industry jobs while starting their own businesses.

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

vinesandrushes — Thu, 18 Apr 2024 23:26:05 GMT

All of our staff set their own availability and most of our staff is part-time. I generally work 6 days a week but every week and season is a little different. There are only a few of our staff that will occasionally be over 40 hours in a week and most of the time when that happens it's because it's harvest and fruit processing season (during which we just work all the necessary hours to get the job done). I continue to hand off duties to other staff over time and that frees me up to do the things that I can do most effectively as the owner. I really enjoy most of the work I do and the team I've been able to build around me. Those things make the work much less like work.

This is a blog post by an author/speaker named Merlin Mann that everyone should read. I've re-read it a few times since he wrote it in 2011.

https://www.43folders.com/2011/04/22/cranking

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

CareyJo — Fri, 19 Apr 2024 14:14:14 GMT

I don't know if it's common practice in other places... but in MT, it's very common to see businesses, even restaurants, only open Tue-Sat. Most businesses are M-F only and 9 to 5 at that. Only major retailers are open on Sundays in MT. This is because our warm weather is such a short season and all of the schools have to travel so much just to play games, that most businesses aren't open Sun-Mon. People want and need time off. All middle school, high school and college games require travel. We only have one city in MT that has more than two high schools, so other than crosstown games, every game is traveled. This includes colleges going out of state because we have so few schools that they can only play each other once per season and they're all on different levels, so they don't play all the schools. All six major towns have two high schools. All the others maybe have one and have combined elementary-middle schools. We have a very high number of small-medium businesses in MT, so people are accustomed to setting a different schedule.

That being said... we also go with that flow and only offer service 4 days per week. Our office is 'open' M-F and I answer the phone on Friday, but it's usually a dead day, so I get very few calls. We reserve Fridays for our rental properties and our commercial contracts, so even though we're 'working', it's different work and we often have Fridays off completely. We refuse to do an install on a Friday unless it is a serious no heat emergency because if there are any problems completing the installation, we're leaving them without heat for the weekend. Suppliers aren't open after 5 or on weekends.

The biggest benefit that I have always seen to being self-employed is being able to set our own schedule and decide when we're open. We travel a lot and have that flexibility to say we're closed. Our Walmarts never even went back to being 24/7 and people are okay with that. If retailers and restaurants can decide when they're available - why can't we? Customers should never decide when your business is open. If they do, then you've given them too much power. The only reason that so many big box stores are open on Thanksgiving Day in the US is because the customers have controlled them. It shouldn't be like that.

I get that there are not only businesses who offer specific products and services that need to accommodate the customers at off hours but there are also customers that need to purchase from vendors at different times than normal, to make their business run. Like the coffee shops - they can't open at 9:00 am when people are already at work. But if you're not a grocery store or gas station, or do business in international time zones, do you really need to be controlled by being more available?

We don't have employees and don't plan to but I do know from watching my husband work 10-12 hour days all winter (9 months), that a 4DWW is good for everything.

Re: In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

_Brandon_ — Fri, 19 Apr 2024 21:44:53 GMT

I just hope it catches on for our competition. 😉